BCS chief David Clarke has vigorously defended suggestions that the organisation is 'irrelevant'
BCS slammed as 'outdated' and 'irrelevant'
/v3-uk/news/1941031/bcs-slammed-outdated-irrelevant
28 Mar 2008, Ian Williams , V3
The British Computing Society (BCS) has been urged to revamp its strategy for supporting the UK's IT professionals, or accept that it no longer has a place in today's industry.
IT training firm Firebrand claimed that 91 per cent of IT professionals are unaware of the BCS Chartered IT Professional (CITP) accreditation scheme.
"It is an open secret that, in its current form, the BCS has no real connection with the UK's IT community or those looking to start a career in IT, " said Robert Chapman, chief executive at Firebrand Training.
"The BCS has reached a crossroads. It must either continue as an academic organisation viewed as fusty and irrelevant by the majority of IT professionals, or overhaul its objectives to help revitalise the industry and bring in more new members."
Firebrand reckons that the BCS needs to overhaul its entire strategy, starting with a name change, and lose its image as an academic organisation and become more of an advisory network.
However, the BCS has vigorously defended its relevance in today's IT market.
"As the chartered body for the IT profession, the BCS has been working alongside industry and government towards creating a clear and relevant framework for IT training and qualification accreditations," the organisation said in a statement.
The BCS claims that CITP remains an integral part of its IT initiatives and that its endeavours have been recognised and endorsed by more than 140 companies and government departments which have signed up for corporate membership.
The organisation has also been working with other professional bodies, including the Institution of Engineering and Technology which can confer CITP status on its own eligible members.
"Our decision to make CITP much more widely available is a major step for the BCS and an unprecedented step for a chartered body," said BCS chief executive David Clarke.
"However, our trustees have taken this decision in the interests of the profession and see it as an important step towards achieving the aims of the BCS professionalism programme."
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Do you agree?
Clear Purpose
The BCS does seem to have the slightly amateurish air of a gentleman's club about it. I doubt that it can ever be a cutting-edge organization, or if that would be desirable. But, unlike other IT bodies such as the PCG, It is not clear that the BCS has a driving purpose that will make it useful.
Posted by Steve Williams, 10 May 2008
BCS appears more for the old boys club than for the IT Professionals of today.
My MD is a CITP MBCS but to be honest I have not seen what benefits this has created. I am also aware that to gain part of the title he just needed to be recommend by an existing member, which to me seemed pointless.
I myself as IT Manager, with an honours degree and MCSE have never seen the benefits or purpose of the BCS. When in my final year at University a membership form was passed around for joining the BCS but with the lecturer suggesting we read up and what it means to be a member, as back (03) then it supposedly meant being a representative of the BCS and following certain standards.
I have not seen any active recruitment by the BCS and have not felt the need to actively search them out. My opinion is that it isn't really for the IT Professionals but for the Directors of an IT company, so they can put letters after their name.
Posted by Claire Taylor, 02 Apr 2008
BCS CITP recognised, BUT.....
I joined the BCS after pursuing CEng status with the IEEE became irrelevant towards supporting my career plans. However the CITP status application process is lengthy and full of forms to fill in, which has deterred me from attaining their CITP status.
Posted by Mark Hodgkinson, 01 Apr 2008
Interesting, however...
sweeping statements like this always annoy me! There are elements of the BCS that are certainly worth keeping and I don't consider them "outdated" or "irrelevant" and wouldn't want to see them lost. As an Assistant Headteacher and IT teacher/trainer, I could just as easily make such a statement about the Institute of IT Training - after all, what exactly has it done to support TEACHERS of IT in the education sector? If organisations really want to have a positive impact on the IT industry then they should be targeting far more of their efforts towards schools - after all, we have a captive audience who are more than willing and able to learn. It's just a pity we don't have the qualified IT teachers to deliver IT training effectively!!! At least the BCS seem to recognise this and put some effort into trying to make an impact in education.
Posted by Peter Holl, 01 Apr 2008
Need for clear focus and more effective marketing
The BCS chartered qualifications suffer from two quite fundamental problems, one of which seems to be barely identified by society officals.
The Chartered designation, CITP says it all. The BCS still has an aura of the scientist, the boffin, and Chartered Information TECHNOLOGY Professional encapsulates the problem. What about the information SYSTEMS dimension? This is about the exploitation of IT for business (including society, organisation, government etc) benefit. Changing business processes is not really a technology issue, but its what most of IT is there to support. Obviously excepting process control, fly-by-wire etc. type systems.
Too much emphasis on IT and not enough on IS
The other issue is that chartered membership is not a necessary requirement in many organisations for IS or IT jobs, even at a senior level. Imagine a non-qualified accountant or lawyer being appointed to the board of a major company. In fact, many don't even have a qualified IS/IT professional on the board, despite the intrinsic complexity of the subject and the propensity for things to go wrong.
This can only be addressed by raising the profile of IS/IT much, much more. The success of the MBA brand is an example of what can be done.
Posted by Dave Wild FCIS, MBCS, CITP, 01 Apr 2008
Diplomacy
Ken Mackenzie says:
"If you believe that an organisation, such as the BCS, needs to change its interaction with its members, or its academic world, or society as a whole, or globally, then you should be polite. "Slamming" the BCS in public because you think it needs to change is more likely to provoke them than cause them to rethink their philosophy."
Many times Members have tried to make such a point with rather more discretion, only to be told on each such occasion that we are the only person to have raised such an issue.
Like the famed concept of AlGore-ithm [re-running the same counting process many times until the desired result may be delivered], so, too, the process of failing to log those messages one does not wish to hear fails spectacularly to deliver a realistic outcome.
I believe the BCS should try to stand rather higher than the tactics of Mr Mugabe.
Posted by A BCS Member, 19 Apr 2008
Comment from a BCS member
I think irrelevant is too strong, but as a long serving member I am frustrated that the BCS is so inconsequential.
The good things they do include ISEB, and their contribution to the professional development model, but in terms of useful work in helping IT in the UK there are other groups like OGC, ITSMF, etc. who are more relevant to working IT professionals.
Posted by Keith Collett, 01 Apr 2008
Kirsty Trigg
Unfortunately I feel the BCS is not leading in the provision of IT qualifications at degree level. Too many graduates leave university with little or no understanding of the mechanics of building software and the process by which that software is produced. The BCS professional qualifications should be a gold standard by which degree programmes can be measured, instead of being seen as a qualification that leads to an IT conversion degree.
The BCS also fails to deliver a comprehensive and meaningful service to its members where, for example, forums are open to those who are already highly qualified and little guidance is available to those who are on the lowest rungs of the career ladder. The BCS women's group for example is run by people with an academic background and seems to be a forum for comparing the best academic backgrounds rather than a forum for supporting women encountering genuine difficulties in the work place, which seems it's obvious remit.
The provision of a framework for assessing current career status is frighteningly over complicated and potentially irrelevant to someone wanting to assess their level of competence in software engineering for example. Too much emphasis is placed on the soft skills required for engineering competence. In fact the BCS has a tendency to appear as if it has been swallowed by managers who are emphasising the importance of soft skills, almost lecturing working engineers in an area where communication skills have not always been seen in a positive light.
In short I feel the BCS falls short in the oversight of producing good quality engineers who are capable of building software when they graduate. It also falls short in its ability to offer a supportive framework for those of us who may be more academically challenged than the average PhD. I am forced, for example, to turn to a union to get myself any representation in the workplace, and there is no body to whom misconduct or incompetence can be reported. It seems to me the BCS wants to untie itself from the shackles of academia, and the needs of ancillary staff to prove they are adequate, and provide what is really needed as a core competency reference for jobbing engineers and those working in support of them.
Posted by Kirsty Trigg, 01 Apr 2008
Sadly, yes
When I was at University in the 60s (yes, they had them then) a colleague said "Join this new outfit, just sign here, it's going to be big.". I didn't - I had to do it the hard way 6 years later with the exams and a thesis. Cool!
And then I used to go to lots of local evening meetings - they were cool and you met bright friendly people. I met Ted Codd - anyone know who he was?
And then Monty Finniston promoted Chartered Engineers so I became one.
And now sadly, yes, it has faded away and become completely irrelevant! Fusty, run by trustees. It is a shame, it was good outfit.
But I am not sure what the answer is?
Posted by Stuart Frearson, 01 Apr 2008
BCS
As a company we looked at getting some members of the IT department certified with the BCS CITP. These members have 20+ years experience each and have worked at some of the biggest companies worldwide at all levels. BCS simply wasn't interested. A junior IT manager applied without any qualifications and basic experience and was accepted immediatly as soon as he pointed out that he was able to make financial decisions.
BCS needs to be a body for and supporting IT professionals and not just a financial boys club.
Posted by Kim Peck, 01 Apr 2008
Bootcamp company & BCS have different view on IT Industry - Shocker!
First off I would say that some of the criticism laid at the BCS's door is valid. I believe that the organisation has struggled to appeal to a broad cross section of the IT industry, and I accept that it can come across as rather 'dusty' at times.
However as someone who has worked in the IT industry for over 20 years it is quite simply my professional body in the UK and nothing comes close to it in terms of representation.
I would suggest that the term professional is used rather loosely these days. I even recall seeing toilet paper that was branded 'professional' ... without quite knowing what that meant.
The fact that Firebrand claims that 91% of professionals do not know about the Chartered IT Professional qualification neither surprises nor alarms me. This is because a large proportion of those using the services of such a company are in the early stages of their career and they are trying to boost their progress by gaining qualifications. This is a worthwhile goal but not one that automatically makes them a professional if they pass. The CITP is not a qualification that someone with a CCNA or an MCSE and two years experience in the industry should be considering. I do however, accept it is something that the BCS should advertise and make attractive as a goal for those who wish to pursue a lifelong career in IT.
I will leave it to individual readers to decide whether or not it is a fair and accurate statement to say that the BCS has no connection with the IT community when it has around 60,000 members. I pretty sure that one wouldn't get through peer review ... but to suggest that truth is actually important is so dusty and academic!
I certainly accept that support provided for individuals entering the profession by the BCS could be improved. This could happen at Universities where teaching staff are often members but the undergraduates see little evidence of the BCS. I accept that the BCS must engage with the broadest cross section of IT staff to remain as relevant as possible to the industry.
I believe that the BCS has made great strides to improve over the last few years. I also accept it still has quite a long way to go but I for one will try to help make my professional body as good as it can be.
Posted by Ian, 01 Apr 2008
Who are the BCS?
I've never heard of them?
Posted by Ralph Ferdinand, 01 Apr 2008
bcs is relevant
I believe the BCS is very relevant, even more so today but do feel that they need to do more to make I.T professionals aware of the value it merits in attaining accreditation from the BCS, in regard to a change of name and strategy surely that would completely take away their entire function as a professional body. I believe a huge push is needed in the I.T and computing sectors to make some sort of accredited status a lot more widespread similar to that of chartered engineers or corgi registered plumbers etc.
Posted by Paul Carey, 01 Apr 2008
Absolutely! Outdated! Irrelevant!
This society is pure nonsense. i was a member for years - not renewing this year!
Posted by Dr Martin Andersson, 01 Apr 2008
Ian says: "continue as an academic organisation"
In point of fact, it has been some years now since the BCS has served the academic community in anything like the manner of the Institute of Physics, the Royal Astronomical Society or the Royal Society of Chemists, all of whom provide a publishing forum for academic research papers. The BCS has not, for many years now, even provided this degree of service.
The BCS is fast becoming what its code of conduct desires members should not become: a jack-of-all-trades-and-master-of-none.
So far as CITP status is concerned, many members have not taken-up this status since it add significantly to the annual subscription with no reward save those extra post-nominal bytes. Many of us consider that the post-nominals associated with university degrees are somewhat more significant.
Posted by A BCS Member, 01 Apr 2008
BCS slammed as 'outdated' and 'irrelevant'
What I like in IT, you do not need to be affiliated to any body to be a good IT engineer. It is the feeling and the joy I have when I am trying the new technology which make me more proficient.
Posted by Gaspard Nzamurambaho, 02 Apr 2008
What about CompTIA?
I would be interested in a similar survey of the awareness of CompTIA by companies and those individuals wanting to enter the IT arena, and its impact and contribution in the UK. I get the feeling that CompTIA is primarily US marketed certification with not enough exposure in the UK. Having done the A+ and Network+, it is a useful introduction to more advanced exams, e.g. Microsoft, but its marketing is somewhat less than these.
Posted by Andrew Burrell, 02 Apr 2008
BCS is a joke
I agree with firebrand, I think that the BCS is a bit of a joke and dont feel represented by them at all. they come across as old, crusty, elitist, and out of touch with todays needs of the ICT industry, ICT training/teaching, or skills needed in the field.
The ICT industry needs more than just programmers or people that are willing to study full time for 3 years or part time for 6 years to get some sort of recognition.
Posted by Paul, 02 Apr 2008
response
i joined bcs (security) a few years ago. largest waste of time and money ever. they sent me a few invitations to horribly overpriced seminars led by people i had never heard of. i let the membership expire quick as.
Posted by tony moran, 02 Apr 2008
BCS ?
Who are they again ? I have heard something about CITP or CIPT...but BCS - No Idea as to what they are supposed to do
Posted by Fraser Reid, 02 Apr 2008
Outdated
Maybe the BCS is important for something, but not the commercial world. Its qualifications are neither desired by IT professionals in the commercial sector nor required by their employers, indeed a BCS qualification is perhaps likely to be looked on with suspicion and even be negative. The world has moved on to targeted ratyher than academic and general qualifications.
Posted by Rob Smith, 02 Apr 2008
BCS slammed as 'outdated' and 'irrelevant'
I have been in the industry for over 25 years I agree, the BCS needs to ramp up awarness amoungst IT professionals, but also amongst other business departments.
Support by the IT industry for an organisation such as the BCS should be united.
I was "fortunate" to move into IT in the very early days and formed my training through life experience and networking with others, the BCS provide a place for us to belong and share information. In addition provide excellent support/guidance for managers that are being unidated with poor training offers by unscurpulous providers. The BCS are forging ahead with providing internationally recognised training programmes that with the support of the industry will enable us to have a recognised professional rather than just "IT person". The CITP status is a level that all IT professionals should strive to attain through recognised training, experience and interaction with other members of the IT industry, as it not only proves your worth in the academic fields, but amongst your professinal peers.
I am the global head of IT for a organisation and operate sites across Asia, Europe and the US whose business interest in in the pharma/research industry. The doctors have the enviable position of belonginig to the BMA, without membership cannot practice. I would like to see the BCS moving IT professionals towards having the same registration as Doctors, which I think they are trying to achieve.
I am proud to be a BCS member
Posted by John Hewit, 02 Apr 2008
BCS does a great job
In a world where "product specific" certifications reign, the BCS does a great job promoting study, career development and most importantly professional ethics.
What I think the survey shows is that 91% of people would like to be recognised as a committed IT professional not just a boot camp product. CITP is not something you can achieve by cramming knowledge in 2 weeks is something you achieve with hard work over your professional life.
Posted by S.Viloria Montes de Oca, 02 Apr 2008
Motives?
Perhaps this transient page will help Firebrands search engine organic listing and increase their mailshot list...
Posted by A Reader, 08 Apr 2008
It seems a bit easy to throw rocks from the sidelines
Okay... so a large training establishment profers the opinion that the BCS is outdated. How about forging links with the BCS becomming part of the change that you wish to see ?
I'm sure the BCS would welcome all constructive additions to their strategy, rather than through an article which serves no purpose other than to pitch an "us and them" approach.
We all trade under the banner of the "IT Industry" - So wouldn't it be better to unite the academics, consultancies, training providers and other segments of the industry for the common goal of raising the overall professionalism of the sector.
Posted by Martin Roberts, 15 Apr 2008
Just when I felt ready to join the BCS ...
... it turns out to be irrelevant.
I have been working with and studying IT since 1982; mostly since then providing hardware and software support, application design and support, systems and network analysis and design, security, backup and disaster recovery, statistical analysis, email and web services and just about every other aspect of IT.
Membership of the BCS - along with Mensa and a Doctorate in IT - has been a lifelong goal: all symbols that I had finally made it. The delay in doing any of these has in been partly due to mine own self-doubt, but also down to my 'Marxist' principal that "I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."
Having met all the eligibility criteria, what need have I for them?
There is a certain stuffiness of image that does need to be overcome; that would most likely be through popularisation - heaven forfend! - no doubt through something like "I'm an IT guru, let me out of here!" More similar reasons to avoid spring to mind.
There is a similar dichotomy in the aims of many online communities and groups: achieving breadth of membership and perceived acceptance and relevance, whilst preserving the core aims and tenets, undiluted by the lowest common denominator.
I am aware of the CITP accreditation scheme but have wavered about it, as over 25 years of experience should count for something in its own right. The accreditation does run the risk of looking to the uninformed observer as a one-trick-pony, rather like many of the Microsoft exams whereby with around £2000 and sufficient attempts at copying and pasting from sites dedicated to providing the answers, one can prove the ability to do one thing tolerably well, once.
BCS should aim to engage with the large number of experienced yet unaccredited IT professionals of long standing to bring "real-world" authenticity to their fold, which may help change the perception of the organisation and further encourage those who wish to work as providers of solutions to complex IT-related situations.
Posted by Ian Springham, 06 Apr 2008
WHO!!!
I have worked in IT for 15 Years and I have never heard of the BCS.
Yes I would agree they need a major revamp and some serious adveretising.
Posted by Scott Marnoch, 08 Apr 2008
Change of perception or change of logo?
Any IT professional who has invested in formal personal development will, through accredited training been made aware of the BCS. It is important that the CITP status is not undermined, it is an important accreditation for IT professionals who have invested time and not an insubstantial amount of money into developing their knowledge and skill. Whilst I agree that more professionals need to be made aware of the CITP status, I feel that a majority of professionals who have invested in their careers will already be aware. It really is a case of educating the IT industry to the real world value of the CITP accreditation and changing their perception of the goals of the BCS, rather than just revamping the image. A change of logo and 'image' is highly unlikely to leverage a change in perception, those who are aware of the value of the BCS will stand by its current brand. Industry awareness, however, should be a key focus.
Posted by D Bosley, 07 Apr 2008
Censorship!
I wrote a reply to this article and it appeared ... after a few days ... presumably languishing in the authors inbox for approval.
I have just checked and my response has been pulled?!?
There are a number of reasons that this might be the case:
1) It's a glitch ... there is another response which appears twice with a slightly different title ... rather implausible I feel
2) It has been pulled because VNUNET was asked to take it down for some reason.
3) It was pulled because VNUNET couldn't contact me because the accept rule for the address I set up for this publication was incorrectly formed and was bouncing therefore I couldn't be identified as a real person.
I would like to know why it's no longer there! I should say I am a member of the BCS and have used the Training Camp who were the previous incarnation of Firebrand.
Rgds ian :|
Posted by ian, 14 Apr 2008
ECDL
BCS seems to have grown into a money-spinning organisation for the promotion of low-level IT skills through the likes of the ECDL. I became disillusioned with BCS when, as a training provider, the cost of running ECDL courses became horrendous. BCS made far more money than those delivering the training and it just became unviable. We would have nothing more to do with BCS until they join the real world.
Posted by JimC, 01 Apr 2008
BCS not relevant without Corporate endorsement
The BCS image is certainly out of date. It ranks alongside the Universities that bury their talent in academia. Only those august bodies that actually contribute to this country's development, are recognised in the real world of commerce and industry (or even government).
Research and develpment that makes a difference to the commercial world are a major source of income for those universities. Without that depth of academic research, our industries would have disappeared long ago, in the competitive global markets. As it is, professors and research doctors are selling their knowledge abroad, because this poor nation can't afford their expertise anymore. Great for exports but we are the ones paying for that expertise through taxes.
The BCS should review its reason for being. It produces "qualified" people through its academic courses, that appear to have been superceded by college courses and university degrees. These bodies are producing a perceived higher level of qualifications just by doing a computing degree, let alone a Masters or Phd.
So what The BCS should do is communcate more. It only has itself to blame if the corporate world (including small businesses), do not understand why it exists. If the reason it is still around has no relevance to today's business, it should close. More people in the computing industry value an MCSE or CCNA, that they do an CITP.
If the BCS take affront at these comments then they can do something about it. If they don't take affront, then they should close up shop, because they obviously don't care what people think.
Posted by Ian Stone, 02 Apr 2008
Never heard of them
enough said
Posted by Rob Billings - IT support Manager, 02 Apr 2008
a relic from the past
I agree. BCS is outdated and antiquated in today's IT industry, even as an academic institution.
I work at a university, the degrees being accredied by BCS. However as an ex IT professinal working in industry I was originally suprised to see courses and taught skills being out of date. As a general rule industry development skill are mostly at cutting edge, none of these skill are being taught. In an industry where a development skills shortage is recognised BCS is silent. There is no scope for progression and changes in technology. In a soceity which is more reliant on technology why has the institution not come up with a code of standards for ethical programming. i.e. speaking against developers working on 'big brother' surveillance technologies on ethical grounds etc.
Posted by Tariq Mahmood, 02 Apr 2008
BCS = Waste of money
I agree. When I passed my ITIL Foundation course, I was invited to join which I did for approx £80. Turned out to be a waste of money for what I thought was going to be a valuable and effective resource turned into receiving useless junk mail and junk emails.
They're now trying to get me to renew. I don't think so somehow.
Posted by Vikash Joshi, 02 Apr 2008
BCS Outdated?
This is a ridiculous statement and I suspect ulterior motives are at work in suggesting that this is the case. As a CITP BCS member, I firmly believe in the benefits of the society for wider cross-industry recognition of an absolutely essential profession.
The commentary has offered no real insight into how this society could be considered outdated or indeed irrelevant. How could something that provides industry guidance, promotion and standards be considered as such? Ridiculous. Additionally, the article has failed to mention the numerous structured development opportunities and guidance available to members in addition to the promotion of the IT industry and its workforce as a vital driver of business.
The commentary was certainly two-dimensional and I can tell you as a senior manager in a dynamic, new-media focused organisation as mine (read: not stuffy), I would prefer to hire individuals who are BCS members.
Regards
Sean
Posted by Sean Mayers, 02 Apr 2008
BCS role within British I.T. industry
CITP seems to hold little weight or recognition within this country, yet abroad say in the U.S. it does.
It seems to offer nothing to the I.T. professional as with say, being a Chartered accountant or Surveyor. I believe though this is more of the fault of the I.T. industry in failing in any recognition to those who achieve CITP - which should be viewed as an endorsement of someones experience, professionalism and integrity in line with the guidance of the chartership.
Companies don't care any more about general experience unless its totally relevant to their skills requirement at any given time. There also seems to poor levels of training/retraining in the myriad of Technologies and concepts that I.T. industry is rapidly spawning on an almost weekly basis. Again relying too much on academia to provide the vocational types of skills, or onshoring and offshoring when one organisation can't poach what it needs from another.
Maybe then yes the generalistic CITP needs to be aggregated into several Charterships e.g. Chartered Software Engineer, Chartered Database Professional, Chartered Network Professional etc etc.
Posted by Martyn Panes, 02 Apr 2008
Value of the BCS and CITP
I am a member of the BCS and a CITP and I believe that the CITP accreditation is valuable as a recognition of a level of professional expertise within the IT industry.
It is interesting to read the comments making comparisons with doctors, lawyers and accountants and seeking the chartered status as a job requirement. I am also a CEng and MIMechE and the same discussions about recognition persist in the engineering professions too. I did find a document on the BCS web site showing that the BCS recognises this as an issue and planning a strategy to raise the level of recognition of the CITP qualification. From the comments I read above it is clear the BCS is failing to publicise the requirements or value of the accreditation so there is an opportunity for improvement.
The CITP is not a technical skills qualification, it requires an all round level of experience, responsibility and professionalism exhibited over a period of years. I work in a global business and I know I can easily pick up a technical expert with a vendor-specific qualification such as MCSE, CCNP etc - possibly obtained in boot-camp conditions with the likes of Firebrand and with no experience in the real world. To add a head for a specific task then this is probably adequate. But if I want an individual who can escape from the image of the IT 'techie' and can work to support the requirements of my global business then I need someone with a broader, more professional outlook. I am not looking for an MBA, just someone with a view outside technology and able to demonstrate soft skills in management. Here the requirements for the CITP, at level 5 of the Skills Framework (SFIA see the BCS web site for more details) are ideal and a qualification I would look for and value.
Posted by Peter Mason CITP, MBCS, CEng, 02 Apr 2008
Where's the serious argument?
This looks like nothing more than a contentious press release to earn some publicity. Where's the serious argument? The only firm statement is that 91% of IT professionals haven't heard of the CITP qualification. That is entirely plausible, but it illustrates the dreadfully blinkered attitude within the industry. I get depressed at the number of people I come across with no concept of developments in the industry. They naively assume that the way their company works is state of the art, and they've no desire to expand their knowledge so long as they remain in employment with equally clueless companies.
The jibe about the BCS being "academic" seems meaningless, populist posturing. Professionals underestimate how much they could learn from academics, who have a culture of constantly trying to expand knowledge and find improvements. That's got to be balanced with the pragmatic attitude required for business, but it's folly to assume that no compromise is required; that business knows it all, and academia can contribute nothing.
At least the BCS is trying to do something about the problem. I can't see what Firebrand are trying to do except drum up some business.
Posted by James, 02 Apr 2008
BCS should enforce decent training standards
I have been a contractor in software development for nearly a decade. I have worked on several projects managed by so called senior persons who are short of basic experience. The result were basically a complete waste of time and money.
The BCS should present relevant and readily accessible training to IT professionals based on their chosen speciality. The medical profession has long had its house in order so there is no excuse for BCS not to embark on a similar initiative.
Many consultancies bodyshop, ie bums on seats = MONEY. Often the bum belongs to someone totally unsuitable.
If BCS managed to bring to my attention and that of the employers that they can present an up to date examination that proves competence in a specified field I would pay to get the qualification.
At present I suspect they are a doing not a lot of relevance apart from presenting talks on occasional basis.
Lets go to the 21st century and our profession may start to get the recognition it deserves and not the continual disastrous media coverage regarding the latest publicly funded IT disaster.
Posted by d williams, 02 Apr 2008
Does the BCS give it's members anything extra
First off, I am not currently a member of the BCS. I have investigated joining on a number of occasions but after careful consideration I have always come to the concluison that it doesn't actually offer me anything I cannot get else where.
One of the key benefits was that BCS membership used to convey an element of prestige and legitimacy to an individual that they are skilled in some aspect of the IT discipline, but after talking to friends who work as employment agents this no longer appears to be the case.
Irrelevant and outdated may be over stating matters but the BCS has moved from being one of the premier industry bodies to just another 'club' people working in the IT industry can join.
Posted by Jym Hubbard, 02 Apr 2008
Someone wants a piece of the cake...
I'm assuming Firebrand training after winning a couple of awards feel they have a right to criticise other organisations and even the BCS, what a load of garbage. The BCS has been promoting IT professionalism for some time now so we can be recognised for our standards and reputation. Maybe Firesham will invent their own chartered status scheme and put as much effort into promoting IT as the BCS, or maybe they just want a piece of the BCS cake..
Posted by Rhett Clinton, 02 Apr 2008
Who are the BCS?
I've been doing IT development for over 10 years and I've never heard of them.
I have MicroSoft and IBM certifications but no employer as ever asked me for IT Professional (CITP) accreditation.
Posted by Paul Robinson, 02 Apr 2008
BCS not relevant without European endorsement
The BCS image is certainly out of date. It ranks alongside the Universities that bury their talent in academia. Only those august bodies that actually contribute to this country's development, are recognised in the real world of commerce and industry (or even government).
Research and develpment that makes a difference to the commercial world are a major source of income for those universities. Without that depth of academic research, our industries would have disappeared long ago, in the competitive global markets. As it is, professors and research doctors are selling their knowledge abroad, because this poor nation can't afford their expertise anymore. Great for exports but we are the ones paying for that expertise through taxes.
The BCS should review its reason for being. It produces "qualified" people through its academic courses, that appear to have been superceded by college courses and university degrees. These bodies are producing a perceived higher level of qualifications just by doing a computing degree, let alone a Masters or Phd.
So what The BCS should do is communcate more. It only has itself to blame if the corporate world (including small businesses), do not understand why it exists. If the reason it is still around has no relevance to today's business, it should close. More people in the computing industry value an MCSE or CCNA, that they do an CITP.
If the BCS take affront at these comments then they can do something about it. If they don't take affront, then they should close up shop, because they obviously don't care what people think.
Posted by Ian Stone, 02 Apr 2008
No benefit!
I have worked as a technician, as a trainer and now as an IT Director in the IT industry for 28 years. I have looked at what the BCS does and what they have to offer and as far as I am concerned they should relinquish the name. They do nothing for Britons in the computing industry or those wanting to get in.
For the last 18 years I have been helping new entrants into the computer maintenance sector and I don?t even bother mentioning the BCS, because there is NO BENEFIT for these people.
A colleague has been a member for some years and has decided to give it up. He can see NO BENEFIT.
Posted by Alan Moss, 02 Apr 2008
BCS 'Outdated and Irrelevant'
Until reading this article, I was aware of the organisation but not of what it did, or even that it had an accreditation system ??
In this fast paced industry in which we work - marketing plays a big role, and clearly the BCS are not looking towards the future and will undoubtably be left behind. The Industry needs a voice - and the BCS was that voice.
Now people just say, "BCS who?"
Posted by Glenn Foulds, 02 Apr 2008
Diplomacy
If you believe that an organisation, such as the BCS, needs to change its interaction with its members, or its academic world, or society as a whole, or globally, then you should be polite. "Slamming" the BCS in public because you think it needs to change is more likely to provoke them than cause them to rethink their philosophy.
Posted by Ken Mackenzie, 02 Apr 2008
Firebrand wrong, BCS should not dumb down.
In my opinion the BCS exists as a professional organisation for professional people. There is nothing positive to be gained from the changes Firebrand are suggesting and in fact an observer would have to question Firebrand's motives for what amounts to an attempt to undermine the nation's key IT professional institution. For me, this stinks of an attempt to dumb down and goes against what the BCS stands for, namely 'making the IT profession'. It is also important to note that everyone who has studied an IT related degree course in a good university is likely to have heard of the BCS and their professional membership grades and perhaps Firebrand are primarily considering those without such level of qualifications who have a much narrower field of expertise.
Posted by DMT Meaney MBCS, 02 Apr 2008
BCS has little understanding of the impact of modern business IT
Quite sadly, I feel that the BCS does not even know where to begin in a modern IT environment. I am a highly experienced IT professional working on critical global financial system dealing in billions of dollars of volume per day and honestly find little in the BCS that could realistically assist anyone working in ? let alone coming into - the IT profession. Although I have never been tempted, I am sure the door to the BCS would be firmly closed to me until people like myself had 'proved' themselves in one their rather meaningless courses or exams. I?m sorry, but we prove ourselves at work on a daily basis. The BCS doesn?t represent me or any of my colleagues.
It is a sorry state of affairs and one I sincerely hope the BCS has the intellect and drive to change, as it could play such an important role instead of constantly marginalizing itself.
Posted by Antony, 01 Apr 2008
BCS out of date.....
This is quite correct, I am a CITP but don't have a degree. I hold most vendor certificates and have worked in IT 20 years. I have held almost every post up to and including director. When I applied for CITP I expected my experience and qualifications would count towards my application. It did not, if I was a 20 yr old erk with no experience but a degree CITP was mine but without a degree.... I had to apply the long winded way which includes an interview, my IT qualification's could not be considered. The BCS is out of date and out of touch, to work in IT you must be logical and adaptable not just academic.
Posted by Concerned, 01 Apr 2008
What is the BCS for?
I've been heavily involved in IT since 1984 - Hardware designer, coder and am now CCNA, MCSE, support Unix, Windows, Cisco.
But I've never found a reason to join the BCS - I'm not even sure what the benefits are of joining the BCS.
I even called the BCS last year and asked them what the benefits were of membership - The reply was mumbo jumbo and 'politician speak' - I closed the call after 5 minutes still completely unaware and any further forward.
I'd become a member tomorrow if it benefitted me, but I still don;t know what the benefits are....
In all my time in the industry no one has ever asked or even mentioned the BCS to me.
Their website doesn't shed any light on the matter either.
Have the BCS lost their way?
Posted by Phil B, 01 Apr 2008
Why have a BCS
I was a member of the BCS for several years and allowed my membership to lapse last year.
Institutionally the BCS attempts to keep abreast of the wider shifts in IT demand and changes in directions; I suspect Gartner are probably more usefull than the BCS in this respect though.
At the grass root level, the monthly meetings and technical lectures are fascinating, informative and often exciting. I would wholly recommend members of the public to attend their local BCS meetings.
Perhaps you are looking at the BCS and hoping to find a 32 year old BMW 5 series driving Sun or Microsoft salesman with an expensive suit and a mouth full of dental crowns. The BCS though are run by a steady group of mature intelligent people who know from experience that bleeding edge technologies and sudden media blitz agenda's do not necessarily indicate any sophisticated strategy advice.
Posted by michael hartley, 01 Apr 2008
Totally irrelevant bunch of Wasters
With little, none or, at best, very out-of-date real-world experience. They are well past their sell-by date. Complete and utter rubbish emanates from every aspect of the BCS. It is merely a parasite's drinking club.
Posted by David Roberts, 08 Apr 2008
BCS is relevant
I have been a member of the BCS for nearly 2 years now. I have no professional qualifications just what I left school with. I have worked hard as I am more of a practical person as opposed to the academic type.
The BCS for me has given me accreditation for my experience alone, some 11 years in the industry. The BCS offers more than just an old boys club as some like to call it. True it is an academic organisation, it does on the other hand offer encouragement to those like myself. There are many clubs and regional activities that you can aspire to join if you want to. With the BCS you get back out what you put in. If you join and do nothing expect to get nothing back. If you join and become a contributor then the BCS will open a whole new set of door for you.
Posted by Anon, 21 Oct 2008
Unfair Criticism
As a member of the BCS and a CITP, it alarms me to read these comments from 'supposed' IT professionals who are completely ignorant of the work that the BCS and its examination arm ISEB do.
This truly shows a lack of both commitment and knowledge of their own profession, and does not serve any purpose other than to further incorrect assumptions about the state of our industry in general. I would invite them to first examine the organisation and its goals before expressing such criticism.
I am aware of Firebrand as a training organisation but I do not feel them in the least bit qualified to make such judgements. I would also like to know what they (Firebrand) have done to promote the interests of IT professionals and further the needs of our industry other than just being another training organisation with their own commercial interests at heart. It is quite likely that they are more concerned with generating publicity for their business.
Whilst the BCS does not always resonate with everyone, it provides an essential service and role in promoting and acting as a body to represent the interests of the IT industry in general. It is very well respected throughout the world.
It is sad and alarming to think that some businesses, and as evidenced by the thinking of some of the individuals here, would prefer to criticise and complain about an organisation such as the BCS, rather than investing in their own staff.
What is quite clear is that there are those who are far more in need of an 'update' than the BCS (and I am not talking about image).
Posted by Colin Berry, 21 Oct 2008
What else is there?
It is clearly true that most of the BCS has not moved with the times and is horribly out of date. It comes across as a preaching organisation of academics telling the world the "right" way of doing something, with little attention paid to the necessary or the now of most problems. The heavy reliance of expensive books and poorly research and maintained reading lists is very off putting and basically makes the organsiation seem like a money making exercise, rather than the support framework it needs to be for IT professionals.
When I invest my time I do not just want letters after my name (that most people do not know what they are) I want relevent knowledge - it is VERY questionable if CITP will deliver this.
But,
What else is there that can be put on your CV and has some sort of formal credability, not everyone gets (or wants) to work for a well know brand, but the skills learnt in Nobody IT Ltd often equal, or even surpass those from Everyone Knows plc, but the CV has less cache because it is not covered with brands which make you an easy higher.
Make CITP relevent and an influencer of pay, or BCS has no function to perform.
Posted by DG, 22 Feb 2012